“Open Letter” to an Highly Offended Internet Atheist
Dear Always Offended Atheist (this would refer only to the ever-offended atheist, not the reasonably atheist who just doesn’t care),
What exactly is the problem- for you- with religion? Why do you rail against a God who “doesn’t exist” and the “silly immature notions” of millions, no, billions of believers who personally have nothing at all to do with you?
I know these are not horribly original questions, but I would genuinely like an (honest) answer to them.
You are thrown into a tizzy at any mention of church, God, religion, worship, prayer… Somewhat amusingly, this reminds “us” of a cinematic demon encountering holy water. Why do you care at all when you don’t believe? What is it that has filled you with this seething hatred and disgust?
I have been harrassed by evangelicals, told repeatedly as a child that I would burn in Hell for ____. Forbidden from hanging out with my best friend because I was not of the proper religious persuasion. I have read the Old Testament- repeatedly. I have read the Quran. I learned the same history as you. I know exactly where your trouble with religion comes from. What I don’t see in my assessment of you is an ability to view the whole picture and to seperate corruption from intent or proper practice.
Assuming all religion is false- it makes people happy. Certainly, it makes some people miserable, guilty and angry, but on a whole, it makes people happy. This is particularly true in difficult situations, such as the death of loved ones, or financial difficulty. I can think of no reasonable argument that belief in an afterlife or in a loving providing higher being are negatives.
That which you hate is a corruption of the religion you profess not to believe in. I can only speak from a Christian perspective because I am an outsider to other religions- A Christian is supposed to follow Jesus, Jesus taught love, peace, and proper living; not judgment and fighting. Christians are to leave the judging to God and love and pray for everybody (this basically equates to the secular “wishing them the best”. I know some atheists who are offended by the notion of prayer because they believe it denotes a “holier than thou” or “better than you attitude”.) While the specific things we may pray for seem bizarre and stupid to you- things such as salvation and being right with God- this is our view of what is best. I (and many many other religious people) pray that your life will take the absolute best possible route, and I personally believe that to be the route to Jesus. However, if I am praying properly, I am merely asking that God’s will be done in your life, which is exactly a whatever is best for you request. At risk (and not really caring- some things need to be said) of sounding perfectly self-righteous- do you ever “wish me the best” or send positive thoughts my way? Or the way of any pathetic misguided religious people?
There are judgmental Christians and there have certainly been wars fought and deaths caused over all religions, but the same can be said of those involved in repressing those religions. These are evidences of corrupt people abusing power. This has little to do with religion- even if the practices were carried out by large numbers of people, they were wrong.
So, I would like an explanation. I am interested in understanding this perspective, as I’ve never been able to empathize with it. Let me go ahead and state- I will not enter into an argument with anybody and will not “defend myself” against any childish impulsive responses. Sure, I have addressed this in an accusatory manner, but would you really have read it otherwise? If somebody wants to explain sincerely or have a real discussion, I would greatly appreciate your response(s).
Because I value truth. You see if you understand how things work you can manipulate the world and make things like vaccines and bridges and computers. Also there are people out there who wish to kill me in gods name. Now, I happen to like living and the only way to get fanatics to give up on the killing is to get them to understand they are wrong. You might say, why can’t we live together but you see there is a slight problem with that. If you actually believe that anyone who isn’t of your faith will burn in hell someone saying “can’t we just get along” is like someone saying “I don’t see why you are complaining, they are only torturing their own kids and threatening to torture your kids, why can’t you accept that”.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoThere is more, but I don’t want to write to long a reply.
Samuel,
Wow, I’m surprised to have a response at all, especially this soon. I opened this account, maybe 1 week ago and posted only a couple of hours ago. I guess wordpress was a good idea.
So, the reason you hate religion is because you know better. Not to be facetious- is this what you mean? I would normally argue “how do you know you are right and everybody else is wrong?” but that wouldn’t be fair at all here- and really pretty obnoxious.
I will argue, however that science and religion are (obviously) not mutually exclusive. We have science and technology in a world that has hosted some form or other of religiousity throughout its history.
There are all sorts of people who may want to kill you. Those people are crazy. It really doesn’t have anything to do with religion. Some people use religion to justify their deviances and to recruit support, but as mentioned- they are wrong. There have been plenty of mass murderers and serial killers with no religious beliefs and there are people who want to kill you for your political and social views, as well. Are you equally disgusted by radical feminists and conservationists, PETA, or any of a number of other mainstream non-religious groups who place a negative value on your life?
And, finally, how is my belief that you will go to Hell if you don’t accept Jesus (assuming I have that view) harmful to you if that reality doesn’t exist for you? I certainly never claimed to have the power to send you to Hell, and I won’t pretend to even know what “Hell” means. The Bible says that those who don’t accept will be eternally seperated from God. How is that a problem for you when you don’t know or accept God to begin with?
Hope you come back to my non-blog. See you then =D
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoActually only read the blog on the tag surfer and yours was at the top. That usually means I respond
What matters to me is not whether your ideas bring you happiness or comfort, but whether they are in fact true. For example old Ted down the road has been happily married for many years to a very attractive wife. It makes him happy to think that she had been faithful all their years together – what a lucky guy he is.
Does it matter that his idea makes him happy or whether it is in fact true? If the truth was opposite is he better off finding out, or ending his days believing something false which helps him love his wife?
I think that is the difference. I care about what is true, what is known, and where we just plain do not know but we are working on it.
Sadly most of the people repressing religion have done so because they are of a different religion. A secularist like myself does not want anyone persecuted in the name of religion or for not having one. But would we agree that a belief that says pray should be used instead of urgent medical care is irresponsible?
You see, while there is a difference between moderate and extreme religion, it really feels like it is only non believers shouting extremists down. Those that really care not about the next life but controlling my life now. Not about letting their god judge me but acting his wrath on me right now.
By the way I have argued on my blog that evolution and religion are not incompatible. However, as you will see in the comments, there are those around that will not accept anything less then the literal truth of the bible.
As to hell, well to believe in fiery eternal torment and wish it on those that happen to not agree with the divinity of Christ just does not seem very pleasant. But I agree does not cause me to loose any sleep at all.
The secularist state benefits the religious and none religious. At least it should. I can disagree with you about god, we can argue about what constitutes the good life, and what is the welfare of a people. That is normal discourse. None of us should be crucified for different cosmology.
I do actually want the best for all living things. We are all human, and it seems a pity that people are prepared to hope for the worse to happen to people than to actually work together for the solution to problems in this world.
Helping hands that do are better than lips that pray. best wishes and hopes for the future (life?) are one thing. But as far as e can lets try to make the world a better place to live on that celebrates our differences while embracing our common humanity.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoAh, I see, this would explain the activity. I guess I will fade from the ranks and nobody will visit me again.
So, homoeconomicus…, you are not one of those who despises religion and everything having to do with it.
I am in nearly complete agreement which is why I wrote this- just in case somebody was reading. In actuality the question stems from my experience on stumbleupon with many rabid atheists. You can submit a website on baking cookies and if the author’s last name is “Church” or they call baking a spiritual experience these people will jump all over it claiming their absolute disgust on the religious propaganda being pushed onto them, carrying on and on about how unreal God is- at the same time as expressing their hatred for Him- and all the evils present in the world because of religion.
I’m quite sure you know the type of people I’m talking about. My first reaction to that is: they must be very young, angry, easily influenced. But that’s the easy way out, so I try to understand this attitude which I find very very strange and certainly antagonistic (if these people are so concerned with the “horrible” effect of religion on the world and all of the deaths and misery having been caused by it, then it would seem to follow that these would be peaceful and compassionate people, which they show themselves to not be.)
What is truth to me, is different than what is truth to you. You can call your truth what “can be known” but my truth can be known, too. So, it is a very frustrating thing to discuss with people who don’t share your beliefs. It’s difficult for me to interract with many people of the same religion (you mentioned one of those reasons- Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and any other Creation-based religion does not have to eliminate evolution. I don’t understand why evolutionist arguments always attack religion, which is not an opposing scientific viewpoint, and why religious people limit God by saying they have some absolute knowledge that He did not create life through some form of evolution. I personally see flaws in the argument for micro-evolution, but I have witnessed other forms of evolution. I can’t argue with that and feel that those who do are missing something in their faith.) There is a wide range of beliefs just within one religion/sect/denomination. Maybe an overgeneralization is part of the problem with the people mentioned above. Maybe religion means to them a bunch of severe judgmental old Bible thumpers, hmmm, probably Jehovah’s Witnesses, if they don’t allow medical care, or child molesting Catholic priests and they truly cannot move beyond that image.
I have not always been a Christian. I was agnostic most of my life, but I would have called myself a number of other things ranging from Buddhist to Pagan at varying periods. There are other religions out there, and there are benefits to many of them (it’s very difficult to say all so I’ll just leave it alone). It is not even a question as to whether religious beliefs encourage people toward humanitarianism. The certainly do all the time.
So, anyway, to cut an already long comment a little shorter: I don’t care for the persecution on either side, either and I have a… maybe pathological need to understand why people do the things they do (this is never satisfied because I never actually figure it out).
Thank you for your response!
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoAnd, on a seperate note, I didn’t know you were brought up JW (until I read your blog just now) or that you were actually talking about them. I guess you know exactly the stereotype I was describing.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoI think much of the anger comes from frustration that people do not consider the possibility that they may be wrong. That no evidence whatsoever could disprove what they feel to be true.
That frustration boils over when the impact of belief have inhumane consequences. Whether leaving a woman to die when an egg is trapped in the fallopian tube, refusing a blood transfusion, treating a woman as a subordinate to a man, discriminating on customers based on religious views of sexual orientation etc.
However anger never really helps me accept when I need the fire in my belly. I certainly am not out to convert people to atheism. I actually think that spiritual moments are not uniquely religious, but generally only discussed in such circles.
More concerned with being a productive member of society, voicing my concerns and hopes, going about things the democratic way with respect for human rights and the welfare of people.
That leaves a lot to disagree about. That is what political discourse is about. And the free thinking of ideas is something that no one should be nervous about.
Maybe because I was there I understand the appeal. It feels great to think god cares for you. But when I realised the organisation was a fraud, I could not pretend that all was fine, or go through the delusion that it would be alright. I needed out.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoYeah, I post like I vote- early and often. Now for your statements.
How do I know I am right?- Lack of evidence for the supernatural, period. There is no proof for the existance for anything of that nature. For a more sophisticated version of this arguement just type in atheist on google.
Certain religions and contradictory with certain scientific discoveries. It depends on how much said religion intersects with the real world.
How do you know they are crazy? The Philips family are extreme homophobic and vocal and are considered not “true christian”. Unfortunately they are well educated (several have law degrees), and know the bible back to front. And believe it is literally true. You know where I got this from? Phags for Phillips- it is written by gays who support their efforts because it reveals discrimination for what it is.
The thing you don’t seem to get- that most moderates don’t get is these people aren’t crazy. They are entirely rational. They simply blieve that a holy book is the written word of God. And they act on it. Remeber 9/11? Those men where sane, they simply believed that the United States was the enemy of Islam and that their actions would be reward with paradise.
The difference between these people and nutty secular causes is that the nutty secular causes are exposed for the insanity they are and have no influence on the real world. The faithful do. The only exception would be PC, but that is more an expression of conformism and no one actually defends it.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoOpen Response to an Offended Internet Theist
http://atheism.about.com/b/2008/01/28/open-response-to-an-offended-internet-theist.htm
In case href is not allowed.
Posted 1 year, 9 months ago@ i’m marking my comments with @
Dear Always Offended Atheist (this would refer only to the ever-offended atheist, not the reasonably atheist who just doesn’t care)
@ i’m not always offended, but i do care. Be careful to avoid painting False Dichotomy. One can be offended and reasonable. There is a trend to look at an outspoken atheist as some kind of threat. Theists outnumber atheists by at least 10 to 1 and we have no political representation. We’re not much of a threat.
What exactly is the problem- for you- with religion?
@ i don’t like being told what to think/feel/do.
Why do you rail against a God who “doesn’t exist” and the “silly immature notions” of millions, no, billions of believers who personally have nothing at all to do with you?
@ The dismissive quotes are unnecessary and insulting. You’re playing a game with trying to simultaneously appear reasonable/open minded, but all the while being rather aggressive.
@ They do have something to do with me. They run my government, they are my family, my friends, coworkers, co-motorists and they vote (that’s what really scares me) etc. What they believe often becomes a problem for other people (and not just unbelievers). When there is a theist president, he allows his personal beliefs in an imaginary being shape national policy.
I know these are not horribly original questions, but I would genuinely like an (honest) answer to them.
@ i’ll try my best! But keep in mind, i’m just one bloke. i can give only my honest answers. i don’t speak for atheism as a whole (no one does, we’re not an organization).
You are thrown into a tizzy at any mention of church, God, religion, worship, prayer…
@ Not at all. i get huffy when someone uses my tax dollars to push their beliefs. You can have a dozen giant crosses in your yard. Just keep them off gov’t property. i get in a tizzy when someone uses a religious argument in making policy, like banning stem cell research because a made up character would oppose it.
Somewhat amusingly, this reminds “us” of a cinematic demon encountering holy water. Why do you care at all when you don’t believe? What is it that has filled you with this seething hatred and disgust?
@ The seething hatred group of atheists is very very very small. Non religious folk are less than 10% of the US, of those only about 10% are like you describe. But like every group, only the noisy people get attention. Did Falwell represent you? Does Osama bin Laden represent my Muslim boss? Not so much. 10% of the population cause 90% of the problems (true of just about any group).
I have been harrassed by evangelicals, told repeatedly as a child that I would burn in Hell for ____.
@ Did that suck? i know i don’t like it. Do unto others something something something.
Forbidden from hanging out with my best friend because I was not of the proper religious persuasion. I have read the Old Testament- repeatedly. I have read the Quran.
@ The fun thing about religious texts is that you can cherry pick the parts that support what you already believe. If you want to murder murderers, you can look to the OT, if you are more into mercy and forgiveness, look to the NT. i don’t care what your book says. i care about what you say and do.
I learned the same history as you. I know exactly where your trouble with religion comes from. What I don’t see in my assessment of you is an ability to view the whole picture and to separate corruption from intent or proper practice.
@ That’s the No True Scotsman Fallacy
Argument: “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
Reply: “But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge.”
Rebuttal: “Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
@ You can say that OBL does not represent Islam. He would disagree. You made a distinction between your Xianity and the Xianty you called Fundamentalists. When you understand why you dismiss Fundamentalists as Xian, you might understand why i dismiss Xianity and the rest. Come to think of it, i believe in exactly one less god than you. So we’re not that different.
Assuming all religion is false- it makes people happy.
@ So? That’s not really a reason to tell people how to live or to allow others to tell you how to live. It has nothing to do with reality. You can achieve better results with self-confidence and self-actualization. Dr. Phil is far more useful in that regard. He’s not imaginary, unless i wax into solipsism.
Certainly, it makes some people miserable, guilty and angry, but on a whole, it makes people happy. This is particularly true in difficult situations, such as the death of loved ones, or financial difficulty. I can think of no reasonable argument that belief in an afterlife or in a loving providing higher being are negatives.
@ Is it harmful for a child to believe in Santa after a certain age? Would it be harmful to have a doctor who didn’t accept evolution? Maybe, maybe not. But why believe something that has 0 supporting evidence? You can achieve the same or better results without believing in unicorns.
That which you hate is a corruption of the religion you profess not to believe in.
@ No, see above. My problem is with people believing they can do as they please to me and others because god told them it was ok.
I can only speak from a Christian perspective because I am an outsider to other religions- A Christian is supposed to follow Jesus, Jesus taught love, peace, and proper living; not judgment and fighting. Christians are to leave the judging to God and love and pray for everybody (this basically equates to the secular “wishing them the best”.
@ See the No True Scotsman bit. That is what Xianity means to YOU. Some Xians would say you aren’t being a good Xian soldier. Who is right? You of course! You’re right because you’re the one talking and you aren’t going to paint a bad picture of yourself.
@ Have you ever met and atheist who thought god was on their side (and gave them permission to do terrible things)?
I know some atheists who are offended by the notion of prayer because they believe it denotes a “holier than thou” or “better than you attitude”.) While the specific things we may pray for seem bizarre and stupid to you- things such as salvation and being right with God- this is our view of what is best.
@ When you were a kid, did you like patronizing adults telling you what was best for you? Want the government to tell you what is best for you? It’s condescending.
I (and many many other religious people) pray that your life will take the absolute best possible route, and I personally believe that to be the route to Jesus.
@ Why Jesus and not Shiva or Vishnu? What about the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You’re very lucky to have been born in a Xian home/nation that would guide you to to this route. You had a much bigger chance of being born to some other culture. You dodged a bullet there! How convenient that you just happened to FALL into the right religion! Can you see how it seems a bit arrogant and egocentric to us that every theist thinks THEY are on the right path?
@ As for this religion vs. that religion… most atheists don’t care. From the outside, they’re pretty much the same. Change the hats and speeches… bam! New religion.
However, if I am praying properly, I am merely asking that God’s will be done in your life, which is exactly a whatever is best for you request.
@ God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his plan?
At risk (and not really caring- some things need to be said) of sounding perfectly self-righteous- do you ever “wish me the best” or send positive thoughts my way? Or the way of any pathetic misguided religious people?
@ Sure. i send such thoughts all the time. They don’t go anywhere, but it pleases me to do so.
There are judgmental Christians and there have certainly been wars fought and deaths caused over all religions
@ i’d like to hear about Buddhism causing wars or inquisitions. Got any data on that?
but the same can be said of those involved in repressing those religions.
@ Really? Evidence? Don’t bother bringing up Stalin, he wasn’t pushing atheism, he was fighting off a rival power base.
These are evidences of corrupt people abusing power. This has little to do with religion- even if the practices were carried out by large numbers of people, they were wrong.
@ No True Scotsman Fallacy. They ALL believe they are right and paragons of their faith. A secular world might still fight, but they’d do so over things that are real.
@ If understanding really is your goal, learn a bit about logical fallacies, learn what atheism is and is not. Most theists don’t bother, many are looking for a fight.
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoTodd,
Hello and welcome. I’m not going to address your entire response because it’s Friday afternoon and I don’t feel like it. Hmmmph.
But…
As I told Samuel (above) the aggressiveness (although nothing resembling the aggressiveness usually dished out by the persons I’m speaking of) was completely intentional and used to illicit response.
It seems to have worked well.
The few things I did want to address: there is no false dichotomy in “offended for illogical reasons” and “reasonableness” they are true opposites if the first option represents unreasonableness and I believe it does. (And what is reasonable, anyway, but what is determined to be by most people? I think most people would agree with me, maybe that doesn’t make us right, but…)
If these rabid angry people are in such a small minority why have 90+ percent of my experiences with atheists involved them? You say most theists are “looking for a fight”, but nearly every atheist I have encountered has been.
Logical fallacies have nothing at all to do with belief or faith or religion. You guys (and I’m sorry for generalizing at your expense, Todd, it’s just annoying to find that there really isn’t any more to the answer) are pretty amusing in your assumption that I have never heard an argument for atheism or taken a class in philosphy.
I guess the entire problem with the discussion is that we are speaking different languages.
The reason that I would say a crusader (and the reason I refer to Christianity and prayer to Jesus instead of some other deity would have obviously- I thought- been because that is where my personal religious beliefs lie) or an, ahem, member of the Phelps family is not following Christianity truly has absolutely nothing to do with failed logic (or quite amusingly to you, I’m sure, logic at all- we are speaking different languages, remember). Religion is personal as much as it is collective. My religion has absolutely nothing to do with theirs despite the fact that we may call ourselves the same thing. Therefore, they are wrong. This is not connected in any way with your argument because these people TRULY do not belong to my religion.
Islam and Christianity did not exist until after AD 33 for Christianity and well after for Islam. These are not the only religions that have inspired people to wage war (interestingly, there was a story today about two mentally retarded women who were sent into a market and blown up by “fundamentalist” Sunnis in Iraq. I would be willing to bet that forced suicide bombing has no basis in Islam.) And in your belief that Buddhism has not influenced any warmongering, you are using the same argument denounced above. “True” Buddhism promotes peace and enlightenment, right? This is a denouncement of those who have called themselves Buddhists and gone in a very different direction. If you want specific instances, you find them. I know human nature and that you are absolutely correct in your assessment that a completely atheist world would still see war. Buddhism, as any other of the world’s religions, does not breed perfection.
You say that it is “arrogant and egocentric” that theists all believe that their path is correct, but you believe exactly the same thing. There is also 0 scientific evidence that a God or many Gods do not exist.
But, I’m really not one to argue with you, but rather to thank you for your response. Afterall, I wrote this with a mind for very personal answers and with the assumption that atheism is, in fact, not an organization (which some seem to argue that it is). This is why the “why don’t you research atheism” argument makes no sense. I don’t care what atheism collectively says because atheism is supposed to be a lack of the collective.
Soooo, so far the responses go along the lines of:
Todd: They do have something to do with me. They run my government, they are my family, my friends, coworkers, co-motorists and they vote (that’s what really scares me) etc. What they believe often becomes a problem for other people (and not just unbelievers). When there is a theist president, he allows his personal beliefs in an imaginary being shape national policy.
…Not at all. i get huffy when someone uses my tax dollars to push their beliefs. You can have a dozen giant crosses in your yard. Just keep them off gov’t property. i get in a tizzy when someone uses a religious argument in making policy, like banning stem cell research because a made up character would oppose it.
Samuel: Because I value truth. You see if you understand how things work you can manipulate the world and make things like vaccines and bridges and computers. Also there are people out there who wish to kill me in gods name.
Homoeconomicus: Seems to not oppose religion, but imposition on and by any party
EE (from about.com): feels that religion imposes on (her??) freedom to raise children
Posted 1 year, 9 months agoHi, first I’d like to state that I am an atheist and I’m going to adress some of your claims.
First off, the reason I myself am offended by the constant preaching of religion is because it always seems to be pushed upon me. I can’t go a day of my life without some sort of religion being mentioned and talked about, it’s madness. I recently read a study done at a university in San Diego it states that there is a part in the frontal lobe in your brain called the “God Spot” they did tests on highly religious people who claim to “hear god” or “see god” that this sort of thing causes electrons in the brain to go crazy, a form of epilepsy if you will. It is linked to a psychological condition, built into you by society, you are brainwashed. Some say that god created the brain, but I beleive the brain created god. So don’t even try to say it has nothing to do with me, because it impacts my life each and every day.
Now I realize religion does seem to make people happy, it gives them hope and reassurance, but what about those who don’t beleive? Is it really fair to push it onto others? (I’m going to be asking alot of rhetorical questions :]) And yes I’ve been to a few churches and all of them do wish best always in a sarcastic type way this is all church propaganda in my opinion.
The crusades were wrong, how many athiests have you seen who have killed over athiesm? You may say Hitler Stalin etc. But what they were doing wasn’t over religion, it was solely because they were running a corrupt government and wanted complete control, and religion got in their way.
I will finish later, my school bell just rang I’m 15 :]
Posted 1 year, 7 months agoHello Curtis,
Posted 1 year, 7 months agoThanks for stopping by and thanks for your comment. (I am the OP, I’m just not logged in.) I hope that you’ll come back and finish whatever you had to say.
-Amanda